Curse

DIH49 · Jul 03, 2007, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Why is it cheating?

It is cheating for the same reason every other instance of alleged cheating has been cheating: Anet has, at their sole discretion, decided ex post facto that it is cheating.

Master Ketsu · Jul 03, 2007, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DIH49

It is cheating for the same reason every other instance of alleged cheating has been cheating: Anet has, at their sole discretion, decided ex post facto that it is cheating.

Cheating by definition to a game designer = Doing anything in a game in order to bypass what was originally intended by the designer.

So /roll is technically cheating.

boko · Jul 03, 2007, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Maybe Anet should add a Rolling Dice Arena in GWEN, so people who likes to roll dices can play there...

Seriously, this is getting even more ridiculous. People complain about grind and to correct the problem they suggest to break the game even more. Really genius....Not!

Navaros · Jul 03, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Cheating by definition to a game designer = Doing anything in a game in order to bypass what was originally intended by the designer.

Not sure if that definition works. The designers surely didn't originally intend for the Melandru's Hope quest to be done in the way it is for FFF, by scouting the areas before the quest is activated and receiving credit for it after it is activated. Actually the Luxon equivalent to that got nerfed very drastically because of a similar thing happening there.

But players started doing that en masse on the Kurz side for so long that eventually the designers embraced it instead of delivering the expected nerf. And then further embraced it by removing the "double faction for learning Kurz skills exploit" yet reapplying that same "exploit" to the normal game, solely for the purpose of helping the players who make their "in-game living" to do the Melandru's Hope quest in that way the designers did not intend.

Komradkyle · Jul 03, 2007, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Anyone else noticing it takes like 5x as long to start a game because the loosing side has less districts. The other night there was 8 Luxon and 2 or 3 on the Kurzick side

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeek Aran

The difference between r1 and r12:

warrior = three seconds
necro = 12 damage 6 energy
sin = 4 health regen
mesmer = three energy and hp degen
rit = 48 health, which isn't even interesting compared to all your spirits moved at once

See people? Minor minor minor. Of course r12 is BETTER, but the difference is small.

? You're daft.

Warrior = 3-6 seconds of +100 Armor That 3 seconds doubles the length, and since it is an instant shout with an 8 adrenaline cost, that extra 3 seconds can make it almost perma-+100 armor. Did you not read the skill?

Necro = That skill has a base of 16, so that and the extra damage is applied to foe and all nearby foes. Did you not read the skill?

The sin skill is a 10 second regen - that 4 extra health is over 10 seconds, so its not just 4 extra health. Did you not read the skill?

Mesmer - all foes in the area. The area.

Did you not read the skill?

Rit - 48 health to each spirit. Think it through dood - shelter and union lose health as they do their thing, and this restores it. Maybe it is better than you think, but most likely you do not see that because you do not play a ritualist? Did you not read the skill?

These are not trivial differences. This is not, as others have said, pretty armor with the same stats. You found 5 stellar examples as to why that is not true, with the star being almost perma +100 armor. Good choice.

So, you wanna discuss ways to fix the current problem, or is this the extent of your argument?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

D8tura · Jul 03, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Komradkyle

Anyone else noticing it takes like 5x as long to start a game because the loosing side has less districts. The other night there was 8 Luxon and 2 or 3 on the Kurzick side

yea no one wants to play the other sides maps - go figure

can you blame them?

D8tura · Jul 03, 2007, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

Mesmer - all foes in the area. The area.

Did you not read the skill?

apparently he didn't because that one will go upto 8 degen to all foes in the area at full strength

just as good at level one? yeah right...

Div · Jul 03, 2007, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by TabascoSauce

? You're daft.

Warrior = 3-6 seconds of +100 Armor That 3 seconds doubles the length, and since it is an instant shout with an 8 adrenaline cost, that extra 3 seconds can make it almost perma-+100 armor. Did you not read the skill?

Necro = That skill has a base of 16, so that and the extra damage is applied to foe and all nearby foes. Did you not read the skill?

The sin skill is a 10 second regen - that 4 extra health is over 10 seconds, so its not just 4 extra health. Did you not read the skill?

Mesmer - all foes in the area. The area.

Did you not read the skill?

Rit - 48 health to each spirit. Think it through dood - shelter and union lose health as they do their thing, and this restores it. Maybe it is better than you think, but most likely you do not see that because you do not play a ritualist? Did you not read the skill?

These are not trivial differences. This is not, as others have said, pretty armor with the same stats. You found 5 stellar examples as to why that is not true, with the star being almost perma +100 armor. Good choice.

So, you wanna discuss ways to fix the current problem, or is this the extent of your argument?

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

I think his point is that these skills are still good at low levels. In fact, at levels 2-3, it is already much better than their regular counterparts (for example, selfless spirit vs divine spirit, triple shot vs dual shot). Not having the highest rank in the titles is not going to make or break you, and merely rewards people who have put enough effort to max the title. It is anet's first way to turn the game slowly to something like WoW, where grind rewards skill, albeit only a small amount right now.

There really needs no fix. We've played the game fine as it is before these new more powerful skills came out. If we were playing at 100% efficiency before, it just means those with low level luxon/kurzick will be playing at 105% efficiency now because of one/two skills being more powerful, and those with higher levels will be playing at like 110% efficiency.

I think the focus shouldn't be necessarily using those skills to its maximum power. To me, the skills provide a slight incentive for me to do AB once in a while to raise my ranks and maybe slowly get stronger in the long run (sort of like an investment). Everyone seems to see it as a "right here and now" thing, which is the wrong way to approach it.

Voltar · Jul 03, 2007, 12:12 PM // 12:12

i think the point is that usually when people give the gw community free shit, they complain ad nauseum. wtf is wrong with you people. they specifically made it pve-only so that there was no inherent need to "keep up" with the other guy.

grind it or not. and shut the hell up about it. if they're really such "i win buttons" then you should have to work your fat lazy asses off for them. this thread is getting stupid.

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Well Masamune, that is what we were here to discuss, how to fix the current problem. His argument was flawed, and I think your 100 to 110 percent analogy is wrong too. Perma +100 armor is not an extra 10 percent.

This is a case where the work and effort has a significant payoff, versus armors where there is none. He and you are minimizing that, but it is true all the same.

I agree with him in that titles should be grindy. This is not just a title.

As I stated before, the PvE community demonstrably does not like ANet's zero-sum game winner take all PvP mentality, and in the past have shown that they will rig the games to make them more efficient, ie - wintersday and odd districts for grenth even for Dwayna. That is the community adapting to change the fundamental payoff matrix of the game in question.

It is fundamentally different than the PvP crown mentality. Take tennis - the way the community is rigging it (AB) would be analogous to tennis players throwing matches so everyone can get a trophy.

Well, the difference is that 1. it is all virtual so everyone can have a trophy, and 2. The trophy will give you benefits in-game, as opposed to sitting in a case somewhere.

I think that if ANet fixed the payoff matrix for winning and losing such that it is profitable to stay and play and lose instead of quit, then we would solve half the problem, get everyone through this faster, and let AB go back to being what it was - people who like playing AB and not an inefficient grind-fest.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Yaga Philipe · Jul 03, 2007, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltar

i think the point is that usually when people give the gw community free shit, they complain ad nauseum. wtf is wrong with you people. they specifically made it pve-only so that there was no inherent need to "keep up" with the other guy.

grind it or not. and shut the hell up about it. if they're really such "i win buttons" then you should have to work your fat lazy asses off for them. this thread is getting stupid.

I seriously agree. Instead of wasting your time arguing and complaining, you should be playing GW and getting faction points. Arguing here is pretty much useless.

vaxmor · Jul 03, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

previously, grind hasnt enabled you to have a more directly powerful character.

now it does.

welcome to WoW-lite? perhaps a little premature, but, if this luxkurz skill/grind is the future direxion of GW. . .

Navaros · Jul 03, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaga Philipe

I seriously agree. Instead of wasting your time arguing and complaining, you should be playing GW and getting faction points. Arguing here is pretty much useless.

Arguing here is not useless. The uproar over the loot scaling caused the devs to go back a few days later and exempt the important stuff from loot scaling. Uproars for nerfs are a factor in what skills gets nerfed. Uproars of all kinds have led to the devs making all kinds of changes in the game.

And no one is saying "We want the skills now without having work for them". But, having to spend several hundred to several thousand hours of real-time worth of grinding just to max these skills is ludicrously excessive by any reasonable measuring stick. The work to max them should be brought down to a reasonable level.

King's Spectre · Jul 03, 2007, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voltar

i think the point is that usually when people give the gw community free shit, they complain ad nauseum. wtf is wrong with you people. they specifically made it pve-only so that there was no inherent need to "keep up" with the other guy.

QFT.........

Evilsod · Jul 03, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Something that i don't understand...

From the sounds of things, not all that many people pug anymore. Yet the only time that these skills are EVER likely to cause bias is in a pug... A good player in your alliance isn't gonna kick you for not having a high rank in Alliegience.

So where the hell is the problem? 1 moment people don't pug, the next they all do because for some reason it creates a good arguement against these skills.

Darko_UK · Jul 03, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Why? Why is it a problem? Well because we want our skills to be effective, We don't want to play for 20 minutes only to get 50 faction just because somone else decides not to play and another 4 people leave before the round even starts.

TabascoSauce · Jul 03, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

So where the hell is the problem? 1 moment people don't pug, the next they all do because for some reason it creates a good arguement against these skills.

Actually, whether PuGs will discriminate based on faction rank is not the topic in question. The OP is not talking about PuGs.

The OP is talking about AB, and how players can/should/do agree on a random determiner of victory, so that the designated "losing" side can immediately cede the field to the designated "victors" who will win, and the losing side can proceed to the next game. It eliminates wasted time and effort on the part of losers (since there is no appreciable benefit to losing and staying), and given a moderate degree of honesty on all parts will dramatically increase the efficiency of gaining faction.

If the goal of the game is to play, then players will play. Unfortunately, ANet has made it into a faction grind by adding it as an option for going up a monstrously huge track topping out at 10 million points. Just to get to the skills at rank 1, you need 100 thousand faction donated.

So let me quote myself from a previous post to put rhe discussion back on track.

The PvE community has shown that it does not care for disorganized, player-competitive, inefficient win/lose situations.

Don't believe me?

Try Wintersday. Districts were agreed upon - Even Dwayna, Odd Grenth IIRC. That was a situation that the community made vastly more efficient for getting the hats. Why should we compete against eachother when we can all agree and win? We spared ourselves the competitive drama for.......what?

....a frickin hat?

So, when ANet gives us a grindfest totally stacked for the winners, that we can double the efficiency with a simple agreement?

That is a no-brainer.

Now, I may be reaching here, but dont you think that 10 million maxxed is a bit extreme? Even you are proposing that the reward be increased. Hmmmmm.

The only way this can be solved by ANet is to alter the reward payoff. Reward everyone. That will make it more efficient to play through the game win or lose, than quit.

Of course when they give us a situation that we can optimize, then you betcha we're gonna optimize. There is no reason to play the game their way. Their way, currently, sucks.

Thanks!
TabascoSauce

Star Gazer · Jul 03, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

wow sauce......VERY nice post, and I totally agree with you. 10 millions is a TAD bit extreme. Hell, even on double ss/lb weekend, I maxed out SS title on one guy, and had enough to farm some for others. This weekend? ALL I did was FFF, and only ended up getting 400k points. Thats WITH the double faction. I think 1 million should be enough.

I usually and striaght pve, and I could care less about the battle between luxons and kurzicks. That, afterall, is a PvP aspect of the game. They need to lower the requirement on this. I really do feel bad for the luxons though, they do not have a method thats as quick as the FFF :\

Series · Jul 03, 2007, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Anet, just make it so that once you get R1 or R2 in the title (whichever is deemed better), the skills are at max. A little grinding isn't that big of a deal and it is reasonable to reach R1 or R2 for the max damage skills.

But 10 million faction? This is Guild Wars, not a full time job!

(heck, even R2 is a little high, maybe make it so there are several ranks between 0-150,000 and after 150,000 the skills are capped but the title keeps going up for title-seekers?)